Does the C-Suite value HR leaders?

Our panel of C-Suite Executives share what they really think about HR Leaders owning a seat at the table.

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Presented by

Cameron Judson

Cameron Judson

Non-Executive Director | Ignite

NED, CEO and Executive, with 30+ years' experience leading teams, managing change and delivering growth in large multi-site B2B and B2C services, including: managed services, human capital consulting, intellectual property, human services and education.
Pat Tuttle

Pat Tuttle

Executive Director & Substantial Shareholder | Azora Finance

Financial services CEO with a proven track-record in optimising financial performance for key stakeholders, passionate about building and leading highly-motivated management teams.

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Webinar Overview

Our panel of C-Suite Executives share what they really think about HR Leaders owning a seat at the table.

Join AbilityMap for a candid look behind the C-suite curtain when HRs aren’t around. This webinar will offer a no-holds barred conversation that will reveal what executives really think, feel and expect from their HR leaders.

We’ll hear directly from our panel of C-Suite executives about what they expect HR Directors to be able to deliver.

We’ll dig into where gaps in expectations often occur and where they’d like HR executives to focus. This panel will offer a rare opportunity to hear how HR professionals can 10x the value they deliver in 2023. Whether you are an executive looking for more from your HR team or a professional wanting to own your seat at the table, this 45min session is one you won’t want to miss.

As the webinar’s host, Paul Swain, has observed, people are the largest and most controllable cost in almost any business, and HRs need to shift from a cost mindset to a revenue mindset. Or as Paul has put it: “You own your seat at the table when you can show you understand what the business needs.”

The panel will take a hard look at the perceptions that some C-suite executives have about HR leaders and strategies and tactics for overcoming pain points and internal resistance. HR Leaders will leave with actionable strategies for driving that revenue and making themselves indispensable to their organisations.

What you’ll learn
• Hear from C-suite executive & their perceptions of HR leaders
• Identify where HR leaders often fall short in the perceived value delivered
• Discuss high-value areas which should be focused on, within the context of your organisation

Good morning and welcome. My name’s Paul, your host for today. I’m a HR consultant drawing on too many years of experience across multiple countries in more recent years in HR leadership roles at recognizable brands such as Christian Dior, couture Laser Clinics, and dmic Group. I’m passionate about helping HR leaders grow both professionally for their own careers and so they can unlock the benefit for the organizations.

The topic for today is timely and important. Does the C-Suite value HR Leaders? The title of the webinar is Intentionally Provocative Ability Map, and everyone on this panel feels strongly and empathetically for the value that HR leaders bring to the C-Suite. Our discussion is about teasing out how we can fast track getting there.

For the benefit of our HR leaders and the organizations they serve, our hope is that by the end, you, the audience will walk away at least with three actionable learnings that can help with this fast tracking process. And we really do have the right panel to the job. Let me introduce our distinguished panelists.

Today we’ve got two c e o experienced panelists, and two more in the HR profession side. Maybe they’ll just give us a wave so you know, which one is which. I’ll introduce Patrick Tle. First of all hi Patrick financial services, c e o, with a proven track record in optimizing financial performance for key stakeholders.

Passionate about building and leading highly motivated management teams. Thanks, Patrick. Next I’ll. Thanks Cameron. Non-exec director, c e o and executive with 30 plus years experience leading teams managing change and delivering growth in large multi-site B two B and B two B services including managed services, human capital consulting, intellectual property, human services, and education.

Next we’ll, Hi, Shere. That’s Shere. Great expert in business transformation, innovation, leadership and culture equips forward thinking executives, leaders, and change makers to amplify their impact. And then last, but certainly not in any way least Helen hga. So Helen currently works with the 2026 Victoria Commonwealth Games, bringing her extensive experience in capability building, HR transformation, and organization development underpinning global growth.

So let’s get into. We promised to draw back the curtain on the C-suite. So let’s hear from the experts. I’m gonna go to the CEOs first and ask maybe I’ll start with Patrick. I introduce you first. How do you perceive HR leaders and what do you want them to bring to the executive team and to shareholders?

Thanks Paul. And hi everyone. So I guess out of the gate I could definitely say that as a C e o I value HR leaders so we can get that off the table. I’m not here to to be critical. In fact I see them as huge or an integral member of the businesses I’ve always run. And by that a member of the exec committee, in the same way as I view the C F O Treasurer.

C O C I O, head of marketing in any large business. The HR leader always has a seat at that table. And so all members of the C-Suite, from my perspective I always want them to have a deep understanding of the business and what makes it successful. Essentially the reason for being and why our business does things differently and what sets it apart from our peers and competitors.

So I’d say I have a fairly high expectation. Around HR leaders really getting in and understanding what makes the business tick, particularly in terms of the underlying culture and the types of people that succeed within the business. I must say most of my experience comes from within the Pepper Financial Services group, which I was Australian, c e o, and Co-Lo c e o, for 10 years, and where ultimately the business spanned eight countries across Australia.

Asia and Europe, and because we were a very fast growing business, we grew through mergers and acquisitions, so it was a pa, fast-paced environment. We are offer often hiring key people across multiple jurisdictions. So the, our group HR leader was someone that really understood the global business and was instrumental in helping us recruit key people ultimately which were an, a cul, a great cultural fit.

And I think she developed very strong working relationships with the country heads. Each, in each of those businesses as and the senior executive teams on the ground. And I guess from my perspective, by doing the work, she was, critical in being able to understand what drove sound recruitment decisions within the business as, as well as ensuring that our ongoing training and development strategies were supportive of the very high growth environment.

In which we operated because the business was really characterized by constant change. So we needed an HR leader who could adapt with the business and be flexible to the ever changing needs of the business. And ultimately, just to, to sum up, pepper grew from being an Australian only business of less than about a hundred employees in late 2010 to a business operating in eight countries with over two and half thousand employees.

By mid 2017. So this has a lot to do with making some key strategic hires in critical roles. Yeah. Both at a group level and in country and HR was a huge part of that success. Yeah. That’s a lot of people in a lot of locations in a small amount of time, relatively, hey. Oh, absolutely.

And it was really, we were an opportunistic kind of buyer of businesses as the G F C. Kind of destroyed a lot of financial services businesses in Europe. It was an opportunity for others to step in and fill the void. And that’s what we did. So we grew very quickly. Yeah. Great. Thanks Patrick. And then over to you, Cameron.

The same question really. How do you perceive HR leaders and what do you want them to bring to the exec team and to shareholders? Thanks Paul, and I’ll build on kind of Patrick’s points without restating. I’m equally a true believer in the importance of a leader of the function plays in the business.

I always think about them wearing two hats. One is the trusted advisor of the c e o, the person, the executive will have the conversation with the c e o that no one else will. And then equally a leader amongst peers and.

Dimensions. One is the five P’s, which I’ll explain. Yeah. And the other one is L C T, which I’ll explain. So when I think about the best leaders I’ve worked with in this role across a number of different highly people dependent service industries that I’ve been involved in, the five P’s is the best leaders connect people to purpose, wake up all day every day, thinking about the people experience.

I wake up all day every day thinking, how can I connect the purpose and the people to the other three Ps, which for me are. How do we drive productivity, performance, and profit? And if that’s a not-for-profit, that’s probably a how do we drive a surplus to serve more of our customers? Yeah. And then equally, the best leaders I’ve ever worked with in this space, like all day, every day, building on probably Patrick’s Point, thinking about three things that count, that set all businesses apart, which is leadership, culture, and talent.

So the best leaders in this function wake up thinking we have to connect all of our people to purpose. There’s a business outcome we wanna achieve through people, and then we’re defined by having standards or beliefs around the leadership, the culture that is core to this organization and the talent we invite into the organization to be part of it.

That’s great and and I’m sure we’ll come around to your five P’s again because that is something that somebody, people can specifically take away from this and start to utilize that. So we’ll definitely come back around to that. Cameron. Thanks Bob. We’ll move on now to Sheri. So that’s the c e o perspective on the people and culture and hr perspective.

Where are you at on your side of the, oh, look. It’s absolutely critical to have HR at the table and to be that trusted advisor. Because they are really that enabler to really help the organization thrive. If you don’t get the best out of your people, you can’t run an organization no matter what you do.

And I really love what Cameron said about connecting people to purpose because that draws on that intrinsic motivation that inspires them to get up every day and show up to work and try and do their best work because they believe in what the organization stands for. Yeah, that, that really resonates with me.

And talent and attracting and retaining talent is an absolutely critical role. Because you can have a great culture, but you’ve got to continue to maintain that culture. So every single hire, every single decision is essential. And that’s not just up to hr, of course, that’s up to the business leadership to really articulate what is it that they need.

How are they going to, continue to thrive and evolve and change as an organization? So it has to be a collaboration. You can’t outsource that to hr. So really important that there’s business ownership in the full spectrum of, people, finding them, attracting them, retaining them.

Great. And so our big thumbs up from Patrick there, and that aligns perfectly with exactly the point about not only a trusted advisor to the c e o, but a leader amongst their peers as well. So yeah. That’s great. And then we’ll bring our final panelist in Helen. So you are very much on the people side and actively working in people and culture leadership right now.

To round out those views And so I guess what I’ve heard a lot about is is about the vision of great HR leaders and the difference they make within an organization. And I think, if I think about this as a an influencing piece that I think is quite important, I. We understand that vision, the vision of, people thriving, flourishing, really contributing to an organization, the fact that people are so important, and I think all of us, no doubt on this webinar, know the value of that, which is really important.

What I thought that I’d also add to that is that burning platform if you think about this as a change piece that is about. The vision is very exciting, but there’s also the burning platform that people need to understand. This is actually not a choice anymore in organizations. If they want to be able to thrive and flourish.

And there’s significant risk that’s coming about. And I’m sure that CEOs and boards would understand some of the risks that are starting to particularly rise, and it’s making boards and CEOs more interested in the people and culture function in itself and ensuring that people and culture is sitting at the table.

So just some things that are meant to scare you a bit, but might influence that, that decision making. Number one. If I think about the Victorian new workplace manslaughter charges, where if there are workplace deaths, if there are suicides due to a poor environment in a workplace, There are people that will have jail time as a result of that.

And if CEOs and boards aren’t taking notice of the importance of wellbeing amongst the health and safety focus that does already exist in organizations, there’s a significant risk in that space. So that’s just one. The second one is the conversation around hybrid working. Everyone’s talking about it. I know chairs of boards are wondering what’s going on.

I know CEOs really want people in an office, and I know talent is saying, I don’t wanna be in an office all the time. And so how are we approaching hybrid working? How can we make it really purposeful? And I can tell you again, from a risk perspective, if you don’t get this right, you’re not gonna have great collaboration, but you’re also not gonna get the talent that you need into your organization if you don’t offer some sort of flexibility around working where that’s feasible in the workplace.

So talent hybrid working. The third one, the E S G focus, we know is happening. So environmental social governance, it’s a huge conversation at the moment. It really is giving organizations the sort of green credentials. Some are ticking boxes, but the reality is the P N C team really help with the social responsibility element.

Ensuring that employees are engaged, that diversity and belonging is high on the agenda of the approach that’s being taken in the workplace, and also the remuneration components and accountability in that space. So that’s E S G’s the third, fourth one, culture I. The Robo Debt Royal Commission is repeating to me what I heard a few years ago with the misconduct in banking, superannuation, and financial services, and the Royal Commission that was going on there.

It’s the culture within an environment where people were not speaking up, they weren’t saying what needed to be said, and the environment that was created by the organization was one in which people were quiet or were quietened. People are being sacked who speak up, who are courageous. And this is the space that people and culture need to take.

They need to create help to create an environment in which people can speak up. So psychological safety is also a critical piece. The last the last one I’ll say is millennials. It’s a whole other world. There’s a new way of working, coming. If we are not ready for the future with the workforce that we are going to have as our baby boomers and Gen Xers start to exit the workplace, if we are not ready for that environment, we will not be ready for the future of work.

And this is another critical factor and a place that people and culture really step in and come to the fore. When they’re heard, they can help you with these critical matters, and it’s it’s very important. The last thing I’ll just add Covid response. If you look at the HR role when Covid hit, I can tell you I was on a network of HR directors and we spoke all day, all the time with each other about what we needed to do, what we needed to put in place, the agility, the respect I have.

For the hr colleagues I have and the work they had to do across organizations with the changes that were happening, legislative changes, legal changes constantly happening. That agility is just another factor that says if you don’t have HR sitting at a table when it comes to decisions, there’s a huge risk to the organization.

I’ll come to other points a bit later on, but that’s, Particularly important I think, to make sure people understand why P N C need a position at the table. Great. So thank you for that, Helen. So there’s a bit of talk there about the risk and consequence or the stick if you want. And then there was a bit of talk I think also about the carrot and the type of carrots you need to grow an organization from a hundred people in Australia only to.

2,700 people globally in, in really turbulent times. So we’ve got the risk and consequence side and then the positive revenue driving growth side to the argument. So I’m gonna go now in a little bit of a direction about where some of the questions are taking as an, and thank you for asking those.

So there’s a good acknowledgement about the five Ps times. See it seems that there is a mix of art and science, I think is what they’re saying. So there’s sort of art and intuition and there’s also HR speak, but not always business language. So if we draw back around to the HR seats at the table. If HR teams are using HR speak and HR leaders in particular using HR speak and not business language I, is that an issue when it comes to trying to get it right?

May, maybe, I might come back now to the ceo, so maybe Cameron or Pat if you’ve Patrick, if you’ve got a view on this.

Oh, look I, my only comment here is any speak if it’s hr. The C F O talking in code, frankly, it’s not helpful. You need to be speaking plain English so that people get exactly what you mean. So if that means simplifying that type of stuff, I’m always for it. Because you want, you wanna make sure that the C-suite who sit alongside the HR leader are entirely in sync with what they mean as opposed to guessing.

So often it’s just clear communications. Make sure you get better outcomes in my experience. Understood. And is there a role there Patrick for HR leaders, whatever you call them, chief people offices, whatever it might be to speak the language of the business, but also help the C-suite and the c E O.

Understand some of the language that they need in Mexican when it comes to the area of people. Totally. Because o often HR leaders feel and quite rightly sometimes said upon, by the other leaders. There’re, in my experience, the HR leader is a real advisor to the c e o in the context of, I always wanted my HR head to call out.

Kind of bad behavior or issues where they felt members of the C-Suite were lacking? Yeah. In terms of people, talent management or frankly, were just simply in my vernacular old school in the way they approached a lot of this stuff. Yeah. And I always wanted them to speak up and not be afraid to at least share that with me so that we could address it there.

And then, and in a fast growing culture, that was critical. Yeah. Because, ’cause either letting that stuff fester or making a bad hire, A business like that can set it back, 12 to 18 months. Yeah. And frankly, because we grew so successfully, I think we were successful in avoiding some of those major roadblocks.

But it was all part of open communication and calling out behavior when you see it, to correct it and not, and that means making an environment where, I think Helen was saying, making it permissible for people to call that stuff out and not people, not to take it personally, but to take it. Way so that you are moving the business forward.

Yeah. And I think what I’m hearing from you there, Patrick, is to an extent because you, you’re wanting to hear yourself about yourself from your HR lead and I think Cameron touched on a similar thing. You probably asking your HR leads be quite brave as well, huh? Oh, totally. But you’ve also gotta create the environment for them.

There’s some CEOs that I know, but frankly don’t. Create that environment And that’s a real problem for them. Yeah. Because they’re never gonna get the best out of their people, including the HR leader. ’cause they don’t make it, they don’t make themselves accessible or open to that. So you really need, the hr the C E O needs to look at themselves and have a degree of self-awareness to allow that to happen.

And if that culture’s not right, you, my view of it, and I’m gonna come to you now, Cameron, is you’re leaving money on the table because I’ve heard you say before that the people are the business. Yeah, a hundred percent believe that. And to build on Patrick’s point I think the authenticity in the relationship between the c e O and the HR there is critical.

And in my experience, I’ve worked in some very much sales driven organizations where there’s this. Respect for performance in a number, but the organization is also looking for respect in performance around behaviors. So I’ve put very capable people up against all and in Cameron’s language, shot them because there’s complete incongruence with what we say is important around here in terms of leadership, culture and behaviors.

And I think that’s my, also, my other experience, Patrick, to build on your point, they’re the moments to define, I think the relationship the c e o has with the HR lead. And they’re the moments that define the cultural organization. ’cause people think, wow, he or she is serious. Yeah. About the purpose and the values that underpin the purpose.

And so again, my experience is that works really well and there can be a lot of noise. Hell, and I’m sure around risk in the organization as and when that happens, and you can feel that shutter out across the whole organization, but people a week or two later say, wow, I now buy into that. Value statement.

’cause I’ve seen it lived. Yeah. I, look, I agree with that. If you let that stuff, that bad behavior go uncorrected you end up with a culture that frankly you deserve because yeah. You need to stand up for the values of business and what you stand for as a C E O I think in order to get the support of HR and all the C-Suite for that matter.

Great. So I’m gonna move over to big thumbs up from Cameron. So I’m gonna move over to the HR team now. Helen, I think I’ll come back to you first. There’s a little bit in there around bravery and you’ve obviously got to balance the risk side, and there’s a couple of comments in the q and a that.

Really note that’s a good call out, especially the robo debt example around culture. And in fact, every time you see an organization get annihilated in the press they nearly always then refer to the culture of the organization that either allowed it or drove it. So what do you think the barrier is?

Helen for people like yourself who were in those lead roles who were required to be the trusted advisor to the c e o, almost the leader of the executive team ultimately accountable for setting the culture, even though I’ve fully accept that the cat on every aspect of it, and that’s very much shared.

But what are the challenges and barriers for people in your position? Yeah. I think a lot of it, if I look at the standard that says we can win over people by continuing to argue the same thing we’ve always argued as HR professionals. Yeah, it sometimes doesn’t work, right? So if I go in nine meter c e o, who doesn’t get that talent’s really important, wellbeing’s important, engagement’s important.

They know that they want high performance. I might miss the nuance of those sorts of aspects then I need to make sure that I’m taking it from their perspective. And argue in a different way. Which is why I started with presenting risks because sometimes people who are not aware of the sort of, that optimistic view of how people and culture can make a difference, can be woken up by the wake up call of the sort of risk aspect.

But there are a number of things that I think are really critical. The first thing that I do when I come into a role and I’m working with a C-Suite executive, or a number of them, is to make sure I get to know them. I need to know their mission, their personal mission. What is their purpose, not only for the role that they do, but their purpose in being in the organization and what drives them.

If it’s financials, then I speak financial language with them to influence them on the things that we need to do. So here’s a few steps I would suggest. Number one, meet them. Make sure you spend some time with them and really understand their mission. Tailor your approach to what their needs are. It’s not about your needs, it’s not about what it’s actually about what they see and what they need because they are the organization and they are the organizational leaders. Doesn’t mean you don’t have your own perspective and you share it, but it means you are speaking their language. You are tailoring to their approach. Secondly, give them what they want so you can give them what they need.

The saying I use all the time, give them what they want so you can give them what they need. It builds your credibility. It gives them the answers they’re looking for. It gives them the instant answers, but it gives you a foot in the door to broader conversations about what they really need. Thirdly, understand their mission.

I’ve mentioned that. Be commercial about your solutions, really focused on the business outcomes that you’re looking for. Be good at what you do. Obviously, credibility, knowledge is really important and building trust, so doing what you say you’re gonna do and all of those standard elements.

But I think the most, one of the most important things is actually owning the space and filling the space that you are given. So you need to believe and know that you belong and you need to be courageous. So I think that’s, I think that’s particularly important. I think it can often be the case that you shrink back a bit.

You might take your time, bide your time. I think it’s really important that you’re stepping forward constantly. It’s scary and it can be sometimes risky. But of course I think it’s an important part to be credible as a P n C leader, as you mentioned, as opposed to a P N C partner.

Leadership takes courage. And I think that’s it’s very important to be prepared to step forward and take the space that you’re given. So those are probably some of the critical aspects that would make a difference to being heard And ha and having a say. The last thing I will add I can tell what, what matters to an organization by the structure they put in place.

When they have a HR person reporting into the C O or the C F O or in an operational role, the fact is they’re not interested in strategy culture. They’re not as focused on that as it could be. When they put them in the C-suite, they send a message to the workforce, to the organization, to the board that says, our people are our number one asset.

And that is a very critical piece. So I we, if we have time, we’ll come back around to often and in many different ways with HR leaders about this seat, the.

Inform that and also publicizes where you stand now, you, you drew quite nicely together using that word courage for HR leaders. And it’s actually very much what Cameron and Patrick was saying too. So if, think about the courage to move things forward and we’ve got A good point from Lorna in the questions who says, there seems to be a theme around leading with curiosity in this.

So if you’re gonna move forward with curiosity and courage, Sheri, this is really in your world now. How does that link into to how you see this? Yeah, I think it’s absolutely key. And as everyone has said so far, people are, the business people are the X factor, they’re your key differentiator.

So really, I think I see amazing examples where the C-suite and, the c the chief people, officer, hr, they really are joined at the hip in terms of championing, the. The steps towards the vision. Transformation is, has to happen all the time now. No organization can guarantee their success into the future, not one.

So unless you are constantly looking at transformation and innovation, you may have a finite runway ahead of you. And if you’re really embracing transformation, innovation, and if you’re really saying, we encourage ideas from anywhere. If you’ve got that bold purpose of what you stand for, what’s the impact you’re trying to have in the world as an organization?

Yeah. And then you empower, you give your people space, as someone said to, to step into that. You don’t micromanage them. You give them that space and you see what they come up with. Extraordinary things can happen and then that leadership team can then shine a light on where those little pockets of brilliance are happening and then that creates ripples where more people want to step into that.

I just wanted to add a little framework to the acronym. So in addition to the five P’s, I’d like to add my three D’s. My three DS stand for dare, ditch and dial. And it’s really because I believe we’re at a signpost in the evolution of work. We have a choice now. We’re coming out of the pandemic.

We’re in this state of fluxx. We’re looking to the future. What does the future of work look like? I actually believe that the future of work is already here. You just need to know where to look. But in terms of those three D, so the first one stands for Dare I. And it’s about purpose. It’s what do we dare to be?

What do we dare to do in the world? And having that really bold, audacious purpose that is almost impossible to reach, but it sets that North star, it sets that bold, audacious vision that you’re going for. And it’s not just words on a page, it’s how you show up as a leadership team, and you live it every day and you role model it, and you shine a light on where that’s happening.

So that’s my first D Dare. My second D, which I think is so important is bitch. So we need to ditch those outdated work practices. If we can create that space to dial up those more contemporary, those better ways of working. Endless meetings, emails, all the bureaucracy. I interviewed a hundred leaders last year on what’s stopping people from doing their best work and less than a third said they are.

Yeah, and the people that said they or their people are not that lack of clarity, that organizational confusion, that micromanagement and decisions, just taking too long and involving too many people is really frustrating people and holding them back. So if we can ditch those outdated work practices, we can free up space.

A client I’m currently working for had a super ditch, say last year. It’s a multi-billion dollar conglomerate, and they encourage people to create teams of super ditches. They had branding, they had a big sort of fanfare at the beginning, and 1700 ideas were pitched on things to ditch. And then we created a live dashboard so that each business unit could have that healthy competition and see how many ditching ideas were presented by your area and how many are you actually ditching?

So those long procurement processes that drive people crazy, some of those things that’s just this is the way we’ve already done, always done things. Let’s question those and let’s encourage our people to question those. And then my third day is for Dial, and it’s about dialing up those better ways of working inspired by what extraordinary organizations are doing.

And so these are, it’s a simple framework and there’s a lot underneath it, but it’s something that people can latch onto. And if you are prepared to inspire your people, encourage them, and as I said, shine a light and where you see the good happening, that’s really how you can have a thriving community within your organization.

Great. Okay we’ve got a five P’s a, three D’s, and an L C T. We said you would’ve three takeaways at the end of these actionable ones. We’re also going to, I think, set a record for answering all questions as we go, because somebody has said here that. They think these should become LinkedIn articles, so I’m pretty confident we can ensure that those get turned into LinkedIn articles.

We’ve got 10 minutes to go, so I’m gonna use the questions as a q and A now and direct those questions. There’s one which I will come to the CEOs around this one, but there’s a question that says, It goes right back to something that Helen said earlier about hybrid working. Why do CEOs want talent in the office?

If there’s anything to add to that, I’ll go to the CEOs because it’s asked specifically of them. But one of the things I can share with you, Lorna, is really that there’s abundant evidence that people who work. Location at their best time, in their best way, do their best work. So individually, it’s fabulous.

Quite a lot of evidence. On the contrary that says it’s been really damaging to team and group and functional and organizational work and there’s quite a detriment to that. So that’s your brief answer, but maybe Patrick or Cameron, do you have a view on that? Yeah, look, I’m all for hybrid working, but I also know the benefit.

Getting people together at least, periodically, it doesn’t have to be every day, for teams to really work effectively together, you need some time together. FaceTime together. Yeah, so I, I believe in both, we drive an organization that allows I think a three plus two type, working from home in the office.

That can vary depending on the role, but I’m still a big, particularly for young people and grads that are joining. Larger firms, they do benefit from having some of that face time and learning with people in the room. And I know that from my own kids who are graduates in, big firms and they were dying to actually meet, live people instead of just being online.

So I think it, it works both ways. So I’m supportive, but I think you need some of both. Yeah. And we’ve had it thrust on us, right? Because the, because of Covid, and I don’t wanna turn this conversation back around to Covid, but we have something we weren’t ready for really thrust on us and we haven’t quite found the balance yet.

Hey Cameron, anything to add on that one specifically? The only thing I add is Bill, on Patrick’s last point, I think the benefit of being together is definitely cultural, but I think the other benefit that everyone discounts is enormous value, is just learning by osmosis. It’s the informal learning as opposed to structured learning from peer, A colleague, someone saying it to me and what I always refer to as like the four-legged meeting.

Yeah. Any meeting with four legs rather than two, someone learns more than doing it on their own. Yeah. Good. Great one. So I’m going to use our last question that we’ve got, which is from Sean. Thanks Sean. And I’m going to just give our panelists maybe one to two minutes only each or we’ll run outta time.

And what do our panelists find that HR leaders need to quickly learn when they go, when they join the. C-suite. So they take that first step into being around the big table. Is it hard numbers? Is it storytelling? Is it business strategy? What is it? I think I’m gonna come to Shari first. It’s that purpose and vision.

Where does the organization want to go and how do they want to really, stand out and continue, either continue to be leaders or become leaders in their field. I think HR also needs to unlock. Superpowers, like at the C-suite table. But even beyond that, if we can really identify, what are people’s innate strengths, those superpowers, and connect that to the purpose and really recognize that’s where you can really get another level of engagement and, people thriving.

Yeah, understood. That’s great. And then maybe I will switch on to the c e O side of the cso. I had to build on Helen’s point, you gotta own the space. You gotta have something you believe in. Hopefully that’s you believe in the purpose of the organization. Hopefully you believe in the five Ps and the Ls dt.

Yep. And just own it and go for it. It’s like playing first grade, you’ve been picked. Yeah. Yeah. Now it comes right back to how we positioned this whole piece. Today, maybe the term partner is overused and the business leaders, they’re looking for a leader. Hey. Great. Another thumbs up from Cameron.

That’s the Cameron, it’s your love language. That’s a big thumbs up. Paul. If I can just add please do I guess when it comes to this sort of change in what P N C really need to learn pretty quickly I totally agree. The vision and direction, to me, having a north star of what the organization is, therefore what we’re aiming for impacts on my everyday decision making.

It impacts on my everyday conversation and communication. And when I’m developing policy systems, processes, I’m always keeping that in mind. So what’s the culture of the organization? How can I reinforce it through all of our systems? All of our people systems, how can we reinforce it in every meeting we have?

How can we make sure that everyone really fully owns the culture and the values? And so a couple of approaches that I take, and this is a few steps to take note of firstly make sure those values are really meaningful. If they’re not meaningful to people, ditch them and change them. There’s a ditch of one of the Ds.

Change them and make them meaningful. Secondly, create A from and two. So what’s the current culture? What’s the culture we’re aiming for? And I can tell you boards love that if they’ve got this quick one pager that says this is what we currently are, this is what we’re aspiring to, it can really make a difference.

And the third point I’d make is around psychological safety. I think that goes to one of the questions as well. If you haven’t read the Fearless Organization by aiming Edmondson, I would encourage you to do we would talk about the robo debt example. We need to create a fearless organization that requires really great candid feedback, constantly being a part of what you do and ensuring that you face into the challenges as well.

That takes courage for everyone, not just p n c. Understood. That’s good that you came in because I was come to you anyway. Your answer was in Helen, the first half. What, like you were describing, you might be disrupting Cameron’s now might, you were describing being practical, right? Yeah. And do you know, I started this new role, not that long ago, and I looked for a book that said, your first 90 days.

And I read it and I’d already read it before and I realized why I had to reread it. ’cause it actually didn’t give me practical. What do you do, first? So of course I’ve just developed my own approach to it. Yeah. And I think when we speak at these sorts of things, we need to help people know, first you do this, then you do this, then you do this.

And I think we’ve just gotta make it real and practical all the time. Simplify it. Don’t make it too complex. Yeah. Great. Good. Thank you. And last but by no means least on this point, I’ll go to Patrick. Yeah, I think my, if you are the HR leader in the exec committee of a business, I think first and foremost, you like all those execs need to understand the vision and values of that company.

But then from an HR perspective, I think you need to be able to identify the kind of traits and characteristics that drive the successful leaders in that business and be able to distill that and drive that through the rest of the organization with the C E O. Because that’s how you actually build the culture from within.

And as the HR leader helps drive it alongside the c e o as opposed to just being a kind of cost center. That, I think to Helen said, you have if hrs layered below the c O or the C F o, that’s a very bad sign. So if you’re in that situation, get out of it. Talk to the c e o and make sure that changes ’cause that will not, deliver the right outcome.

Exactly right. And I think it shows Patrick a real fundamental lack of understanding in leadership of, as to the value that people bring. Because if people are the business exactly to Cameron’s point, then if people are the business and they are not represented at the highest level, then it’s a bad, you’re not gonna have the friction.

That promotes that agenda. Good. Okay. We are about to finish our time, so I’m going to do a last minute check for questions. We’ve got no more questions, but we are getting some great feedback from our attendees. So I will say on behalf of the attendees using one of the comments, a quality panel.

Couldn’t agree more discussion. C e o side Patrick and Cameron, and also thank you to our HR people and culture side in Cherri. And Helen, your takeaways, were you five or maybe now sixties? Who knows? We have the three Ds. We’ve got l c t. There was talk about courageousness and curiosity from HR leads, so I’m sure that.

Our ability maps that are on this call have got loads of follow up particles. Will no doubt do some further webinars on some of these themes. And lots more content to come from the Ability Map team who I’d like to say thank you for for putting this together and hosting it today. So thank you to all our panelists.

Thank you to everybody who’s joined and from Ability Map. Thank you. Thanks everybody.

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